tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post1045530492688820987..comments2024-03-18T10:29:20.125-08:00Comments on TriloBoat Talk: Cat Ketch WAYWARD's Prototype Split Junk RigDave Zhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-7025376551568529662023-11-01T20:58:46.139-08:002023-11-01T20:58:46.139-08:00Hi,
We haven't found that to be at all the ca...Hi,<br /><br />We haven't found that to be at all the case. The basic quadrilateral geometry with FLAT CUT SAILS (Hassler or Van Loan) is so straightforward that it has fallen perfectly in place for each sail without adjustment. The key, I think, is to let the sail hang naturally with gravity (not be forced into an anti-gravity position by parrels). The mast can be canted anywhere within the range that the parrels allow this free hang (i.e., short parrels high; increasingly long parrels low).<br /><br />The 'stagger' (each reefed batten extending increasingly aft by a small, set amount, which helps keep sheetlets from fouling) depends on fabric diagonals in each panel constraining the lowering/lowered batten position. <br /><br />CAMBERED panels (including SJR) don't have a diagonal that goes taut, so its NOT available to constrain positions.<br /><br />We have found that an upright mast, well-cocked boom (/lower batten), together with very short batten parrels at the mast and a docked boom give slight but ample stagger. In our case, this is also helped by that uppermost 'headboard' panel (crabclaw), which transfers halyard support evenly to the uppermost batten... fix this batten with a short parrel, and the lower sail hangs docilely from it.<br /><br />One of the main ways to control boom movement in cambered sails has been diagonal 'Hong Kong' parrels between battens. These are finicky to adjust, and add complexity. As we are rigging, we've not found them to be necessary.<br /><br />Hope this helps!<br /><br />Dave Z<br /><br />Dave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-8500962778514153142023-10-31T10:12:57.723-08:002023-10-31T10:12:57.723-08:00Beautiful boat!
How did you build/rig your boomk...Beautiful boat! <br /><br />How did you build/rig your boomkins on the Wayward and the Slackride without cluttering up the stern? All the photos I can find online show a vee or wye shaped boomkin with arms attaching to the stern on either side of the rudder. That would seem to take up important space aft needed for things like a yuloh or a Seacycle, or for that matter (for those wanting one) an outboard mount.<br /><br />I saw a photo somewhere, I think, of the Slacktide’s stern in which it appeared that the boomkin was a single spar affixed somehow to the transom (pivoting?) and held in place by lines or cables.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-262098402726671572023-10-29T18:50:15.026-08:002023-10-29T18:50:15.026-08:00I read in Van Loan that batten parrels need to be ...I read in Van Loan that batten parrels need to be adjustable in the course of rigging the sail. That seems complicated, calling for lots of trial and error in raising and lowering the sail. Is that what you have done?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-7734367187010346612023-07-10T13:06:25.474-08:002023-07-10T13:06:25.474-08:00Hi,
The masts have a hole through them to pin the...Hi,<br /><br />The masts have a hole through them to pin the foot, but not for the pivot. The pivot pin passes through thick aluminum plates affixed to the upper tabernacle posts, and through a strap doubled over to form a hinge.<br /><br />The strap is lagged to the mast, then wired around with several passes of heavy guage wire, and then again with line led around the pin on each side (safety in depth... even if the lags were to give, the mast should stand for quite a while).<br /><br />The plates are screwed and glued to the posts (or on SLACTIDE and LUNA, we made the whole tabernacle from aluminum). At some point, we are supposed to upgrade to bolts, but thank you for reminding us... that had slipped our minds!<br /><br />Our preference for the hinge is not wanting to pass a large hole through the mast at partner level. Lots of boats do this, but most are supported by stays and shrouds (like the Thames River Barges). Ours is freestanding (cantilevered), and the partners is where all bending forces accumulate. We'd like it as strong as possible for any given scantlings.<br /><br />If you're interested, here are two postst that focus in with better pics:<br /><br />http://triloboats.blogspot.com/2012/03/masts-as-if-they-grew-on-trees.html<br /><br />http://triloboats.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-standing-masts-and-tabernacles-who.html<br /><br />Hope that's helpful!<br /><br />Dave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-21094057799551437522023-07-09T00:06:25.732-08:002023-07-09T00:06:25.732-08:00Beautiful boat!
I can't really see from the p...Beautiful boat!<br /><br />I can't really see from the photo, but it looks like the masts pivot on a pin through a hole in the masts, and are held to the tabernacles at the top by some sort of large pad-eye-like fitting. Are these of metal? If so, did you make them yourselves from off-the-shelf materials or did you have them professionally cast? If they are of wood, what close-grained hardwood did you choose? <br /><br />Also, how are the fittings attached firmly to the tops of the tabernacles?<br /><br />Perhaps what I'm seeing is an extension of the tabernacle wood itself, through which the pin is run. I've seen pictures of mast-tabernacle hinge pin similarly run through the tabernacle wood itself (possibly with a metal bearing sleeve, but I didn't get a closeup photo to show). If that was not your choice, what was your thinking in not choosing that option?<br /><br />Many thanks for this informative and interesting site.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-82718121254376068462022-04-21T12:36:28.333-08:002022-04-21T12:36:28.333-08:00What Len said!
All the extra complexity is in con...What Len said!<br /><br />All the extra complexity is in construction, and that's reasonably straightforward. If you want to go even simpler for cambered sections, check out Roger Taylor's 'hinge' method for MING MING.<br /><br />That extra 'balance' (area fwd of the sail) didn't affect our mast placement, but definitely gives us more sail area on the same mast.<br /><br />In terms of the trade-off, I think beginners would find it worth the extra effort. The extra pointing/footing actually improves safety margins, so easier on those starting out.<br /><br />RE SJR vs Cambered (unsplit)... my (2nd and 3rd hand) impression is that SJR outperforms the merely cambered when racing head to head. But all three (including flat-cut), have their merits. It would depend on how you roll and when and where you want to spend your time.<br /><br />One point... The SJR 'jiblets' when reefed hang down like 'jowls' this interferes with fwd vision and is hard to duck under (picture swabbing your shirt with chill morning dew!). There are ways to collect them, but there goes another bit of simplicity. Flat and Cambered don't have this issue.<br /><br />RE Rigging... thanks for the suggestion, I'll put it on my list.<br /><br />In short, we rig the halyards and lifts while the mast is laid flat then raise it. Attach halyard to lug (yard), sail to halyard and, raising as we go we tie the battens to the sails and parrels around the mast.<br /><br />So we don't have to go aloft, hopefully ever!<br /><br />Dave ZDave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-78657020710871282122022-04-21T12:14:42.403-08:002022-04-21T12:14:42.403-08:00Hi Sail4th,
The main is a simple, six-part sheet ...Hi Sail4th,<br /><br />The main is a simple, six-part sheet run top-down through three blocks aloft, each controlling a pair of battens via sheetlets (aka sheet spans), and turned by blocks at deck level. <br /><br />So far standard for systems without euphroe. A tweak is that we don't run them parallel to the centerline (as usual), but at right angles. This allows the foresail sheets to straddle the mizzen and gives us a little better lead.<br /><br />The sheet is made fast on the strbrd side of the cabin trunk, and turned aft on the port side. It runs to a cleat on the port side of the mizzen tabernacle (which is offset to port), proud of the cabin top. The tail runs straight down to a kitty-litter bucket (3gal).<br /><br />The mizzen is also a simple 5 part run, with turning blocks along a boomkin (near parallel to centerline) It returns to the end of the boom as a quasi-6th part, but is turned along the boom, and down again at the fwd end to a cleat on the starbrd side of the mizzen tabernacle. Fall to bucket as before.<br /><br />The advantage of this tabernacle placement is that both sheets are close together fwd of the helm so they can be handled together while facing fwd.<br /><br />Hard to describe in words, but pretty simple in execution. Hope this did it!<br /><br />Dave ZDave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-35597744610736188702022-04-21T09:04:50.082-08:002022-04-21T09:04:50.082-08:00I can't speak for Dave or this boat. However, ...I can't speak for Dave or this boat. However, Sailing close to shore would benefit from higher lift than flat panels and cambered panels are not that hard to make. There are tools available online for layout/cutting barrel shaped panels that require the same sewing as flat. As for the SJR, while it may be somewhat more difficult to construct the sail itself, the actual rigging tends to be easier (use less lines) because the the SJR should hang straight all by itself without extra parrels to force it to. As such it does not really violate the KISS principal. The other thing the SJR brings to a design is mast placement. On a smaller boat such as this, the mast placement can make a large difference to usable space for living in. The SJR allows placing the mast somewhat aft of a similar flat or cambered sail and may be just enough to avoid having a great pole in the middle of a berth. Also remember that a sail is not just one great span of cloth but rather sewn together from many pieces. The SJR would therefore be easier to sew as the spans of sail are smaller and easier to deal with. The SJR has also been around long enough that the jiblet sail shape is well understood and is reasonably simple (there are some really simple ones but Dave did not use them)Lenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08196148948735265965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-10568746507473794442022-04-11T16:55:46.898-08:002022-04-11T16:55:46.898-08:00Many thanks for your interesting articles.Many thanks for your interesting articles.Sail4thhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06757446159295740362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-16067358265932174882022-04-11T16:54:47.060-08:002022-04-11T16:54:47.060-08:00It seems, with respect to simplicity -- the KISS p...It seems, with respect to simplicity -- the KISS principle discussed in others of your blog posts -- that for beginners, even in a sailing area like yours, going with the flat cut sail suit would be a better trade-off. What say you?<br /><br />Alternatively, what do you have to say about a slightly cambered suit of sails NOT split?<br /><br />Another article request: As do-it-yourself folks, using the KISS principle, could you write about the detailed procedure you go about when rigging your boat? (For example, are you forced to go aloft?)<br /><br />Sail4thhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06757446159295740362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-88452898706719087912022-04-11T15:51:01.574-08:002022-04-11T15:51:01.574-08:00Can you write in some detail about how you rig con...Can you write in some detail about how you rig control lines from the sails to the points of control? And when I say "in some detail," I mean after the manner of this outstanding article.Sail4thhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06757446159295740362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-63359754910789696792021-11-03T19:29:49.047-08:002021-11-03T19:29:49.047-08:00Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sur...Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sure hope you thank her for putting up with you. I know I sure thank Sandy nearly every day. <br />CharlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-28182607126924846492021-11-03T19:29:08.646-08:002021-11-03T19:29:08.646-08:00Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sur...Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sure hope you thank her for putting up with you. I know I sure thank Sandy nearly every day. <br />CharlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-21396372022273622572021-11-03T19:26:27.703-08:002021-11-03T19:26:27.703-08:00Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sur...Dave, if your half the pain in backside I am I sure hope you thank her for putting up with you. I know I sure thank Sandy nearly every day. <br />CharlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-5870377153084765662021-11-03T15:39:56.771-08:002021-11-03T15:39:56.771-08:00Hi Len,
Yes, we're going to try cambering the...Hi Len,<br /><br />Yes, we're going to try cambering the mizzen, but inertia has sofar kept us from it (it's built, just has to be rigged). Maybe this coming year? The prob with flat cut miz is that, especially with 5-part running sheet and a short lead, it has a tendency to shake the shape out of itself. We induce it with a kludge (a carabiner lets us clip in boom doubling part) if we're sailing to windward for any longer length of time. We hope the camber will help. Balance point about 2:10ft (12 total).<br /><br />Theory is that the flat top panel will likewise tame the set of sail, avoiding Hong Kong parrels.<br /><br />Your project is intruiguing, and sounds quite doable. I applaud raising the planing stern... likely a biggish job, but the payoff should eliminate drag from the abrupt, below-WL break at the transom. We've had good luck with raising the bottom above the LWL to about the same amount as the draft (rectangular stern).<br /><br />One couple was looking at joining two identical hulls with straight runs aft stern to stern for a large-ish double ender over a 'barge' mid-section. Haven't heard back if it happened or results, but sounds promising!<br /><br />My personal preference has come to favor ketch over schooner rig... a schooner's main (aft) has its CE relatively farther forward, and makes control of the stern much less positive. The ketch mizzen (aft) nails it, however. REALLY handy for sailing off an anchor in a tight spot... can choose the departure tack with 100% results. 'Course, a SCHOONER... there's romance in the name! 8)<br /><br />Good luck with your project and fair winds!<br /><br />Dave ZDave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-22457706056923314262021-11-03T15:19:06.267-08:002021-11-03T15:19:06.267-08:00Hi Pantalones,
I think you're gonna like it!
...Hi Pantalones,<br /><br />I think you're gonna like it!<br /><br />Dave ZDave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-86724033232724089312021-11-03T15:18:09.723-08:002021-11-03T15:18:09.723-08:00Hi Michael,
Glad you liked! Please let me know wh...Hi Michael,<br /><br />Glad you liked! Please let me know when the useful detail runs on to TMI... I always have a hard time knowing.<br /><br />Dave ZDave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-63760343083457479492021-11-03T15:16:37.212-08:002021-11-03T15:16:37.212-08:00Hi Charles,
Thanks! Our wedding was 32 some years...Hi Charles,<br /><br />Thanks! Our wedding was 32 some years ago, but congrats (and condolences) are always welcome! 8)<br /><br />We've usually referred to ourselves as 'partners' as it sounds (to our ears) as empowered as we feel partnerSHIP to be.<br /><br />Dave Z<br /><br />Dave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241033623115158564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-11112944469899515742021-10-25T14:22:25.941-08:002021-10-25T14:22:25.941-08:00Thank you for the update. It seems you are thinkin...Thank you for the update. It seems you are thinking of adding camber to the mizzen? Or would that be another SJR? and in the case of merely cambering, what balance point?<br />I am (Horrors!) working on a power to sail conversion for ... economic reasons. We have been going step at a time: Repower from 160HP sterndrive (too old for parts anyway) to 7.5hp OB, add Off center boards. So far the OCB have been wonderful. They have pretty much changed almost all of the rocky motion to up and down. It is worth leaving both sides down in a rolly anchorage. The 7.5hp could use a large flatter prop, but will be switched out to a 9.9 with a large foot and bigger flatter prop instead. Because it is a planing hull, I think I will extend it 4 feet so I can ramp the rear of the hull up to water line before adding a rudder. I do not know if I will get to masts and sails before next season or not. It was your square boats that made me think I can get away with all this :) I do not expect to go fast, but our trips last summer confirmed that 5 knots or so will be adequate. My plan is to use a schooner or ketch rig. I feel that while I am trying to calculate out good locations for OCB, etc. The hull shape also dictates some of these things and a sloop leaves little room for correcting balance after the fact. Thanks agian for sharing your thought processes along with your experiences after sailing.Lenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08196148948735265965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-71528079015160504812021-10-18T07:52:14.748-08:002021-10-18T07:52:14.748-08:00Really appreciate your exploration of the SJR. In...Really appreciate your exploration of the SJR. Inspires me to get going on my current boat project which may include the rig. Thank You!Pantalones Frescoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10705935808241992572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-53672548244416015002021-10-18T05:26:21.461-08:002021-10-18T05:26:21.461-08:00Dave,
Thanks for this excellent, clear, and infor...Dave, <br />Thanks for this excellent, clear, and informative report with lots of useful detail. <br />- MichaelGrandpa Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10160473884122805771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-66701615914905186652021-10-16T18:36:15.618-08:002021-10-16T18:36:15.618-08:00Glad to have the first report on Wayward’s see tri...Glad to have the first report on Wayward’s see trials.<br />Extend my congratulations or condolences to Anke on her promotion from partner to wife as appropriate. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3580987459140037495.post-79417495746481969142021-10-16T18:36:01.038-08:002021-10-16T18:36:01.038-08:00Glad to have the first report on Wayward’s see tri...Glad to have the first report on Wayward’s see trials.<br />Extend my congratulations or condolences to Anke on her promotion from partner to wife as appropriate. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com